I gave a quiz today, the last one before the final. On regular (non-quiz) days, I have on average 50% attendence. On quiz days the classroom looks more full.
After the quiz I began my lecture. Five minutes into the lecture, someone packed up their bags and left. Note that the classroom is not large, around 35 seats. A few minutes later, someone else left, and I made a joke about it. Everyone laughed.
It wasn't over. Another person left, and then another, and then another. One at a time. It was comedic. Finally even this guy left (it was his first time in class since the last quiz). In all, seven students left.
All the while I am trying to keep my cool and deliver my lecture, but I was completely rattled. I made another joke. I said, "I know your names. Anyone else gets up and leaves I'm making a note of it in the gradebook." The exodus ended.
I'm still rattled. What the hell? What's wrong with these people? I hate confrontation. How should I handle this?
Update: Well, well. Attendance for today's lecture was six (6) out of 25. It was easy to determine that none of these students were part of Tuesday's exodus. I began class with a comment about the exodus, and the observation that those present didn't need a lecture on common courtesy. I marvelled with them at the size of the class, then said, "I want to announce that we will have an extra credit quiz at the end of class today. And the question I will ask you on this quiz is [about factoid]. If any of you believe that a question [about factoid] is appropriate during my lecture today please feel free to ask it and I will happily give you the answer."
At the end of my lecture I asked them to take out a piece of paper and a pencil and to put their names at the top. One young lady stuck her hand in the air so quickly I worried that she may have dislocated her shoulder. "Angry Professor," she said, "What is the [answer to factoid]?"
I said, "What an interesting question. It turns out that [answer to factoid]. Now, your extra credit quiz is [about factoid]. Please write down your answer and you may hand in your quizzes to me as you leave."
Everyone got full credit, which worked out to about half a letter grade.
Tuesday, May 24, 2005
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33 comments:
You could:
o Double their points for attending/staying.
o Subtract points for those that didn't attend/stay.
o Grade all the people that weren't there a
wee bit more harshly on the final.
I haven't seen anything quite like your situation!
I am an undergrad and I have seen this happen before in classes, though usually they are large lectures. It may be something as simple as they don't realize it bothers you. Certainly some of them don't care, but I bet some do. I have noticed that if the professor tells the class within the first few days of the semester that it bothers them or they find it rude, etc that it tends not to ever happen (even if it is a large lecture!).
I know I would find it exceedingly rude if someone got up and walked away when I was speaking to them, so I don't get up in the middle of a lecture. However, a lot of people don't think about it so maybe they just need a friendly reminder. :) Though at least you have the power to crack down on those who insist on being jerks if all else fails.
Oh and your critical thinking course looks fantastic. I wish they had it at my university. Good luck with the social scientists.
I've had that happen in classes that I've taken. Most of the time the prof will either make up a second, gimme quiz for the students that are left, and give a zero to those who aren't there to take it. Or they will give hw or take a quickie assignment up for a grade. I love it when they do this--b/c it pisses me off when I stay for a class and the people who have more "important" things to do leave, getting the same grade as those who actually come to class.
I took a course on Ethics and Values in the philosophy department...I would watch students enter the lecture theatre, pick up a hand-out, walk up the steps of the auditorium...and go right out the back. The lecturer made up a nonsense handout one day, so those who tried to skip the lecture ended up with notes saying 'theft is a victimless crime' and 'bedwetters are hell-bound'. The lecturer was leaving at the end of the year and had very little interest in restraining himself. He became a hero of mine for that...
These are great ideas, guys. Thanks. I think I'm going to give an extra-credit quiz tomorrow.
All those suggestions are good. Colleagues have also tried: giving one question/answer on the final to those who stay, marking those who leave too early as absent from class (if you count attendance), giving quizzes (or additional quizzes) at the end of class. I track attendance, including arriving late/leaving early, and at the end of the semester, give a small bonus to those with fewer than 2 absences--bonus is often 1 or 2% of points earned that semester.
I think part of this the problem is the "tv effect," where anyone talking to you is seen as the equivalent of the tv screen--where communication goes only one way.
I agree with the suggestions to reward the folks who've chosen to stay and to attend lectures on a regular basis... but not with the punishment for folks who've left. Ask any behavioral science person...punishment is pretty ineffective.
For next term (since it's too late this one :P ) I suggest giving "split" quizzes, maybe? Give the first half at the beginning of the class, then the second half the last few minutes. Make sure the students KNOW that there are two parts.
Then again, there's always giving credit for attendance, but for the love of god...this IS college.
If students leave your class they miss the chance to learn from you. Isn’t that punishment enough?
The object of education is to make students learn, grades should reflect what they know after a course. I don’t think they should be punished for not being there, I am sure their score on the final will tell what they missed.
If I had a quiz that counted towards the grade and suspected that students would leave after I would say "Ok, the lecture is about to start, those that plan to leave do so now so you don’t disturb during the lecture"
When the students receive bad grades it should be because they don’t know what need to know for a good grade. In many cases it’s a direct result from not attending class and doing the work. But if some rare student learns the material from the book instead of from my class they have also earned the good grade.
So Imho, don’t punish them for leaving, just make sure they leave in a a way so they don’t disturb you or the students who stay to learn.
P7
Wow. That's so unbelievably rude. In general, my attitude is that if they don't want to come to class, that's their problem. Those students don't usually get good grades.
But what happened to you is light-years beyond just not coming to class. It's rude. I'm also not confrontational, so I can see how this would be tough, but I think it would be worth saying before the next quiz (when they're all there) that it's just human decency to attend the lecture if they're going to come at all. Tell them you don't care if they don't value their education, but they should at least learn how interpersonal interactions work. Would they ever just get up and leave from a business meeting?
This is much less of a big deal, but I'm wondering whether I should ever tell my students that in the professional world it will be unacceptable to use IM language in emails, and they should start practicing with me.
Personally, I like the technique of giving one question/answer on the final to those who stay.
One of my favorite (apocryphal) stories is about the prof whose VERY LARGE lecture class demanded a weekend review session before the final. He refused, refering the students to the lecture notes, homework solutions, and textbook. The students responded by increased and sustained whining and begging. He finally caved. Several nights before the final, prof made the long commute from the suburbs to campus to provide the review session. Three students arrived.
Enraged, he said "Take good notes," and then proceeded to solve, in detail, each question from the final.
As Nelson Muntz would say: "Ha ha!"
Dr. K.
It struck me that this can be treated as a learning opportunity, in this case about common courtesy. If someone wants to leave early, require them to apologize to the class for the interruption and explain why they must leave.
OK, I give up; this is more disruptive. I'm still baffled by bathroom visits during exams.
Back in the days when I was an undergrad, I saw this happen as well. The professor did something that I thought was most appropriate:
He, at the end of the lecture, announced that there would be a bonus question on the final. He then proceeded to give the exact answer. He told us, the students still present, that the answer to the question would reward them for remaining and listening to the information he offered, thus those who left should not be entitled to the answer.
I don't think any of us told any of the students who left the answer. We wound up getting a double bonus; we learned something new for remaining and paying attention, and we got a reward, a bonus on the final exam.
While I agree that getting up in the middle of lecture is rude, I don't see any point in forcing students to attend lectures. Back when I was an undergrad, I attended very few of the lectures in my science courses, simply because I don't learn well from lecture. I do much better reading a book, since it allows me to linger over concepts that give me trouble and to go quickly through concepts that I understand. I got mostly As.
There were a couple professors who "forced" people to attend with regular quizzes and such, and I resented it highly. It was just a waste of my time.
I always tell my students at the beginning of the semester that if they need to leave class early for something important like a job interview or something, that they should either send me an e-mail ahead of time or come early and tell me before class.
"Otherwise, I will think that I've offended you in some way."
Students are surprised but get it right away. And they are very good about warning me ahead of time.
For the next quiz, state them the following rule: "Whoever leaves after the quiz cannot come back to me after the semester and fucking whine about their shitty grade."
Assholes.
Ah, the joys of the modern academy.
Excellent advice, although I would like to toss in my two cents, as I never thought the following would happen to me (or to anyone)... but it's been a compelling experience.
My institution is currently being sued by a student I failed.
This individual was discharged from the institution, with the failure of my course as the "last straw" after a very disturbing series of events.
This series of events, and this person's behavior in my class, was so egregious that everyone who I have discussed the matter with has been shocked and horrified that the lawsuit has been allowed to go forward.
But it has.
As an non-involved attorney said: "The American judiciary strongly values everyone's right to their day in court, no matter how insane they happen to be."
This matter has cost me hours and hours in time and worry, over the last few years. And will cost me still more, I am sure, as this matter slowly wends its way to court.
My institution has been terrific, although many (if not most) are not.
So, AP, I would recommend letting this semester's miscreants slide. By all means, fail them if they fail, according to whatever you've got on your syllabus now.
But, next semester, I would change my syllabus to reflect any and all penalties that might be imposed, such as:
"Lecture attendence is mandatory, and is defined as your presence in Room 123 from 1 pm to 4 pm on M,W,F. Restroom breaks, of less that 10 minutes duration, are acceptable. Failure to attend all lectures, without prior permission/medical note, will result in course failure."
"'IM' text is not an acceptable form of speech for communication with A. Professor. All emails not written in full English sentences will be disregarded."
"Business attire is to be worn to all lectures. Students wearing denim, particularly those wearing low-cut denim short-shorts, will receive a grade of no credit."
It seems that academic law leaves a lot of room for professorial eccentricity, as long as students are sufficiently warned.
Once written, enforce your rules, (however arbitrary) with vigor for a semester or three. Yes, this takes a lot of work (get some Angry TAs), but it will be rewarded. Firmly establish your reputation as a very unpleasant battleaxe. Make more than one person cry. Become the most feared professor in the department, if not the whole institution. You may notice not only attendance and participation, but the overall caliber of your students improves.
Thanks all. Some great suggestions, scary stories, and a lots of food for thought. See today's update - hope I don't get sued!
Re: Update -
That's awesome.
I tend to dislike mandatory attendance for lecture classes. I think this partly stems from a lingering optimism that if you treat people like adults, they’ll behave like adults. That said, I’m aware of the problem students who neither read the book nor attend lecture, then show up the week (day!) before the exam expecting you to take their hands and personally walk them through the material.
A solution: “Office hours are only available to those who regularly attend lecture.” You can print it out and hang it on your office door!
Very well done. Although in a sad twist, the students who most likely would have needed the extra credit probably were not the six who attended.
I've served on student/staff liaison committees at 2 universities in the UK, one a very good but not great university (top ten though) and the other an Oxbridge uni. At the former, students complained about numbers of assignments, boring lecturers, too much reading, etc.
At the Oxbridge uni, the students wanted more reading, more lectures, more assignments...and lectures had 90%+ attendance every week. I don't for a minute think students at Oxford or Cambridge are smarter. But I do think that all of them had to work a hell of a lot harder to get there.
The day a professor gets sued for extra credit.... probably not. The university will have lawyers reviewing our syllabus language long before that: it'll be ironclad, but you won't be able to do it on the spur of the moment, either.
I don't understand why you find this so unpleasant.
If they feel it is a better use of their time to study from the book, rather than attend lecture, what is the problem? Should the author of the book be offended by students who prefer lecture and don't bother reading the book? Of course I would rather that they try to get the most out of of both lecture and the book, but the students are trying to balance a full courseload, their personal lives, and possibly a part-time job or volunteer work (I think you said you had some pre-meds and my uninformed guess is that they volunteer more than average, if only to make their med school applications stronger).
It seems to me that most instructors who express class size preferences tend to prefer smaller classes, actually, which is another reason I am confused by your reaction.
The etiquette some of the other commenters seem to be applying is the etiquette of conversation. But a lecture is a different type of communication.
Um, that said, I have no problem with you laying out etiquette rules at the beginning of semester and penalizing students who break them, as long as you don't expect them to read your mind about what you consider acceptable. I had one prof who told students they would not be allowed in the classroom late unless they had contacted him ahead of time to explain their upcoming lateness. It seemed effective.
Walking out in the middle of a lecture is simply rude...I wouldn't expect to have to tell my class that any more than I would need to tell them that they should turn off their phones or wear shirts and shoes. If students don't want to go in the first place, fine...but in the end, they're usually the ones either complaining about a poor mark, or telling the lecturer that he 'has' to explain the whole course to them, the night before the exam.
I've never much liked in-class quizzes (either as a student or an instructor); I find they make the atmosphere more combative than I prefer. But then again, my campus doesn't have much of an attendance problem, primarily because we're required to take attendance every day in lecture (or lab), and then can drop any student who misses three or more classes.
To encourage attendance I give extra credit points to those who have perfect attendance at the end of the semester, and I also use an in-class response system, wherein students get a participation point for every question they answer (I ask ~3-6 questions a day).
I found that there is no stopping the student who doesn't care about you or the grade. However, if you tell them that it bothers you it will stop many of them. I request that if they are going to entertain the idea of leaving in the middle of class to do three things. They are: sit at the end of a row, be quiet, and do not walk in front of me on the way out. If they break any of these rules I call them out in the middle of lecture. I find that you only need to do this for the first week or two. After you embarrass a few students by addressing them directly in front of the entire class, everyone understands that you aren't kidding.
I've done the pop quiz thing too. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), I teach a subject most students cannot learn adequately from a textbook and I don't teach directly from the book so there is almost no way for the student to earn a good grade unless he or she attends regularly. As such, the pop quizzes rarely have any influence on students' grades. It just makes me feel better. I'm trying to go to the gym regularly instead...
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
Hello,
Just found your page, think its very funny. I am a teaching fellow in the social sciences and have resorted to carrying out different "experiments" to see what works and what does not in terms of attendance, class participation, etc. For example, last year I taught two sections of the same class, one with mandatory attendance as part of the grade, and one without. Lo and behold, guess which class had more students? Guess which students did better on the tests?
The thing is, I come from the “treat them like adults” school. I know this works in some places – at least it did where I went to school. I also agree with another reader that students might “feel” they have better use for their time. The problem with this, at least where I teach now, this “better” use of their time is spent recovering from the night before. The other problem is that students who continually come in late or leave early disrupt the class for others.
For me, there has been kind of a turn around in terms of my approach to students. I used to try and treat my students like “equals” in terms of attendance, participation, etc. You know, a kind of “Hey, show up if you want to” approach. Now, it is more of a chaffing the wheat approach. Students that do well tend to do so because they put in the time. Students that fail also tend to do so outside of anything I may or may not try. Students in the middle learn when they are pushed – for whatever reasons.
So now, I see part of my job as getting people where they are going to go, as fast as possible. And I don’t mean that in a trite or smarmy way. Quite the opposite. For me, the implementation of attendance, strict requirements in terms of tests, and paper due dates leaves me in a much better position to figure out where my students are going, and then help them get there.
Sometimes I cringe at how far I have departed from my dreams of a progressive pedagogy. But I have also learned that pedagogy also depends on where you teach, and the types of students you have. I wet to a small liberal arts school where no one would dare leave in the middle of a lecture or seminar without good reason. Now I am at a 1A school, where kids are younger, the parties are bigger, and the parents are richer. Honestly, most of them could care less about my pedagogical overtures.
So try tweaking your classes around a bit and then keep a journal or some kind or running tab of the results. Think of it as an experiment. And remember Machiavelli’s famous advice to college professors, “It is better to be feared than loved.” Just kidding. Maybe not.
No, my students aren't hungry. The class is in the morning, and I even brew a pot of coffee in the classroom for them because earlier in the quarter there seemed to be a lot of yawning (at 9:30 a.m.). My colleagues think I'm crazy for making the effort.
I really appreciate all the suggestions and sympathy y'all have given me. It makes me feel a little less deranged. I hate to go to the attendance model, not because I feel obliged to treat them like adults, but because taking attendance in a larger class (this class usually has at least 60 in it) is such a headache. The only thing I can think to do is pass around a signup sheet, but then they'll all sign for each other.
Anyway, in lieu of another update, one of the students approached me Tuesday after class to complain that she wasn't present for the extra credit quiz last Thursday, that it was the only day she had ever missed (true), and couldn't I give her another extra-credit opportunity? Nope, sorry.
Boy, for a professor, you come off rather childish. I understand having a bad day, but this makes it look like you care more about students being there so they can stroke your ego than you care for their education.
It's one thing to announce, at the beginning of a course, that there will be some number of pop-quizzes scheduled randomly throughout the year that may come at any time between the beginning of the lecture and the end of the lecture. It's quite another to punish an otherwise good student because she couldn't read your mind one day.
Lectures exist so that students can learn material. The way you present this episode, it seems that the materiatl is little more than an excuse to lecture. I guess it comes down to this: are you teaching your students useful material or are you teaching them to punch in?
Lectures exist so that students can learn material. The way you present this episode, it seems that the materiatl is little more than an excuse to lecture. I guess it comes down to this: are you teaching your students useful material or are you teaching them to punch in?
Many faculty persist in the fantasy that students will be engaged during class time, resulting in an experience far beyond just a lecture. However, a dialog requires two parties' participation; a monolog is "plan B" (infortunately, the more common situation).
I am amazed at the negative comments. When I went to college I stayed the whole time. I waited until break to go to the bathroom if I didn't go before. These are grown adults PAYING to learn. If they didn't want to take the time to go to class then they should pick up a book and not bother with the whole 'I want a degree for passing through'. Where exactly does teaching a class change into 'stroking one's ego'? That person probably asks how you are and is halfway down the hall before you can respond.
Angry Professor: I love your site and am still reading through all the old articles, so forgive me for my late responses. I love to have teachers like you. *smiles*
Angry Professor: I love your blog! I am a recent graduate from an undergraduate b-school. I was aghast at the atmosphere that prevailed in school and the general lack-of-interest exhibited by the student-body.
Anyway, one of my favorite professors, a former deputy attorney-general was most effective at curbing unruly behaviour. A few examples:
1) He warned the class on the first day that they didn't want to walk out of class after a quiz and that they skipped class at their own risk (especially the days before spring-break and thanksgiving). Sure enough, someone soon walked out after a quiz. "Did you just see that" he asked? " She walked out even after I told you guys that you shouldn't walk out. We're having a quiz...make that 2 quizes" And he proceeded to give us 2 ten-point quizes that were extremely easy and the answers to which he either directly alluded to or pointed out on the board. "Make sure you tell your friend what she missed out" he said "and this is what happens if you walk out after a quiz!"
2) A guy's cell-phone rung in class and the guy actually proceeded to answer the call in class! "Give me the phone" roared the professor and was soon towering above the student. "Hello, this is the prof. so-and-so and we're in class right now. Could you call back later" he bellowed into the phone. No cell-phone rang in class after that!
3) Random quizzes were given throughout the semester --especially when attendance was particulary thin. The professor made it a point to give very easy quizzes on days of thin attendence. "You guys are here and you should get paid" he would say after another easy quiz.
The moral of all this was that people ultimately respond to incentives.
Good luck!
I agree that it is rude to leave a class early and I don't think there is anything wrong with holding students accountable for their actions with natural consequences, such as missing an assignment or quiz. I don't understand this person that thinks you are just "stroking your ego" by expecting common courtesy. When I was in school, this was also common. I always stayed.. I do think it is fair if students grades reflect the effort that they put into learning, which includes showing up (at the very least) to class. Sure, you may be someone that learns well from a book, but that doesn't mean you should not learn to hear anothers perspective. If anything it sounds arrogant to me (as one comment suggested) to say you shouldn't have to attend classes with other human beings because this is a waste of your time and you learn better from a book (well then don't go to school). There are alternatives for students, if they don't want to attend lectures they should sign up for an internet course, or something, but to sign up for a lecture, and not attend and expect to pass. It seems unfair to me that students are not held more accountable, and teachers should be afraid of being sued. In my oppinion the students should be held accountable for their choices..
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