I am A. Serious Student, and I am enrolled in your statistics class next quarter. I wanted to let you know that because I am going to [A Bowl Game], I will be missing a week of class. I can provide proof of this if necessary. I wanted to let you know in advance in case there is any work I will need to make up.Thanks,
A. Serious
Dear Mr. Student,
Congratulations on getting tickets to [A Bowl Game]. I wish I could go too. However, [A Bowl Game] is not a legitimate excuse for me to cancel class, and neither is it a legitimate excuse for you to miss class. We will have several quizzes and exams next quarter, the dates for which I will announce on the first day of class. Only you can determine if [A Bowl Game] is worth the zeros you will receive as a result of making [A Bowl Game] a priority over your course obligations.Sincerely,
A. Professor
38 comments:
Sheesh! Lighten up. Let the kid live a little- and don't fancy your class such an unmissable opportunity. Or maybe you're just jealous?
The only time a bowl game would be an acceptable excuse is if the student were playing in it! (Or perhaps, performing in the half-time show or doing technical work at the venue.)
I'm with ms.phd! At least he emailed you before the quarter even started, and your reply was a lot snippier than it had to be.
Jealous of what, ms phd? And why the excessively harsh tone-- significantly snippier than AP's response?
The point is not that the class is unmissable, but that if it is missed, there are consequences. It is not an excused absence. The student must prioritize what is missable and unmissable (game or class) and knowing that the consequences will help in decision-making.
Plus, did any of you notice the typical effort to sound dedicated while really being lazy "I wanted to let you know in advance in case there is any work I will need to make up." Chances are there is work to make up. And one hopes that next term, there will not be the request for a private email tutorial "what did I miss?" This is why class is 'unmissable'-- because we simply do not have the energy or the time to give make-up classes for every student who opts to do something better that day.
And one also hopes that when the final grades come, that this student will not view this email as prevention for lower scores in the event he misses information or quizzes.
I don't care if a student misses my class, I do care, however, if their missing the class that I prepared results in hours more of my time to give special assignments, meetings, defenses of why their grade isn't an 'A.'
I doubt that this was the reply that A.P. actually sent. This was the reply that she wish that she could send. The idea that the class rules should be bent to let a student have fun does tend to rub many professors the wrong way. There have been times that I wish that I could say something similar to a student.
I have one this semester that took a two week vacation in the middle of the semester. I've cut her a break by dropping the test and homework missed. (Everyone in the class will get to drop one test and one homework). Of course now she's extremely upset because she's failing, and it is somehow my fault rather than the fact that she wasn't able to stay current in the class while she was gone (and have done poorly on all of the other tests as a result).
In my experience it is the rare student that is able to recover fully from missing a week or more of classes. Of course most students think they are the exception.
Perfect response. A University degree is for education not bowl games. The kid can "live a little" on spring break. These comments are absurd.
Surely ms. phd was joking?
sascha and msphd: When you get your 400th request like this as a professor, your tone will be impersonal and brisk as well. It's not jealousy. In Angry's case, she's trying to help the student evaluate the choice. I just ignore these emails, because I am not very nice and could seriously care less where they go, whether they come to class, whether they play wth matches, whether their self-esteems are well developed, etc.
I think this is one of those issues that looks really different depending on the side of the desk you sit and the educational culture you work in. In some countries and contexts, profs want to ask you why you weren't in class. You need a reason. Where Angry and I work, we seriously don't care about what your reasons are; if your reasons are "excused" according to the university handbook and documented, then we *owe* you special consideration by the university's rules. If not, you take your chances--that's all that Angry really said here.
I have one class of 250 people and another that has 110 students with 30 on the waiting list. Of those almost 400 students, no less than 37--THIRTY-SEVEN-have written me emails in the past month or so that say:
"Hi Professor X:
I'm special. I have special reasons to be gone the first week (or in one case, two weeks) of class. Can you tell me what we go over? As you can see, that's really special.
Thanks.
Special student."
I never answer these emails, actually, which makes me a bigger jerk than Angry.
No, my class is not such an unmissable opportunity as msphd characterizes it. I'm absolutely positive that there are wonderful, gratifying, and educational things to do that are not my class. In fact, *I'd* rather be doing any number of those things rather than going to class. My issue is time, and in classes that have well over 100 people in them, if you don't set the policy that you give class ONCE and ONLY once you will never do anything with your time but respond to these types of requests for make-up this and make-up that.
Maybe at expensive SLACs profs have the obligation to accommodate leisure activities, but I don't. From my perspective, writing an email to tell me you are going to be gone is pointless. Just be gone and figure it out on your own. I'm not going to notice, I don't care about your choices, and I'm not going to take time away from my family or my research obligations to catch you up if you chose to be gone to "have a little fun." Have a great time, enjoy yourself--whatever--just leave me out of it.
If Ms. PhD was not joking, then I'm even worse at judging-people-based-on-their-blogs than I thought I was.
If I were a member of an accreditation board's audit committee and reviewing a college's attendance policies, I would be VERY concerned if professors were allowed to excuse students for bowl games.
Sometimes an unexcused absence is just an unexcused absence.
A friend of mine was going through undergrad with the help of USMC ROTC. He received orders to report for movement a week before finals, fall semester of his senior year. Our dean said "Don't worry, I'll write you a note, and you can take your exams on time."
"Er, no Dean, we're being activated and going overseas. I willbe with my unit."
"Don't you realize your education is important? Think of the consequences to you if you don't take finals on time. You'll have to repeat the year."
"If I don't show up for movement, I'll have to do twenty years in the Parris Island Brig."
"Uh, you can take your finals early."
Consequences are important. S
As an undergrad, masters student, and, now, a Ph.D. student, I always had a game theory perspective on course work. I decided what grade I wanted to get (or how much I need the material for my thesis) and estimated how much work that would take including how many classes I could reasonably miss. It worked great, and its saved me the unpleasant labors of attempting to get an A in organic chemistry (I got a respectable B). And, I am proud to say that I have never, not once, asked for special consideration, for a regrade, or for excused absence from a lecture.
Hey, I'm not saying the student should be excused to go to a bowl game, but there's a different way of telling him that.
dr. lisa,
I agree with you. I guess my point is, what's the big deal? Of course you'll announce this policy at the beginning of class: "if you're going to miss a lecture, catch up with your study-buddies or your TA, not with me personally. There may be pop quizzes, but there will definitely be tests- and here is the test schedule. You may have to adjust your personal life accordingly."
But I think if they're going to miss a quiz or a test, and you're getting 37 students who need to take a make-up out of 400, that's just your dumb bad scheduling luck (and theirs).
You could have a day when everyone can come and take their stupid make-up tests, all at once. Then it's less time for you, less special treatment, and more fair to the students. Isn't that a reasonable compromise? You can even tell them that there's no guarantee a make-up will be offered, so they should plan accordingly for the consequences of that, too.
I guess I just think it's bizarre. I NEVER would have asked for special treatment in a class, so I think it take some balls for them to even try! Of course it's totally up to you if you want to ignore that, and that's probably what I would do.
But why the condescending speech about getting zeros and how important Course Obligations are? Why not treat them as adults who get to set their own priorities?
Maybe they don't realize this is not high school anymore. They probably thought AngryProfessor would be a flexible, reasonable human being, so why not ask?
This is, in fact, how normal people behave in the Real World- they communicate when they have a problem, they compromise when possible, and tell people to go to hell only when they're in a position of power.
What does that say about the student-professor relationship, and what kind of example we're setting for students when we treat them like crap?
I never wanted to be a professor just so I could treat students like crap someday.
All of that said, I realize AngryProfessor might not have actually written that reponse to the student. I really hope not.
I actually thought this was a reasoned and polite answer from A. Professor. As someone midway through her fifth consecutive year in higher education, I can state that I would not be upset or offended in the least to receive such an email. (Of course, I would not get tickets to [A Bowl Game] if they required missing class, but if I did, that is the sort of email I'd expect to receive.)
Like Dr. Lisa I don't quite see the point of the e-mail and reply.
I don't remember from my days as a student and a TA that professors really cared about attendance. It didn't really matter if there were 200 or 15 people in a class. If there were no exams, quizzes, or deadlines missed; and if the student could catch up on the material - great. If a test or a deadline is missed or if a student missed something - tough luck.
I was in math/CS, and after the usual 4pm deadline for a programming project the grade went down 5 points/15 minutes.
I'm currently attending an expensive (highly exclusive), private SLAC, and we do NOT miss a weeks worth of classes! Why? Because the annual cost of this college is more than the national median salary and we worked our asses off just to get in here! We didn't come here to party. This appears to be more of a "state school" issue. Friday nights at X-college on the east coast are quiet enough to hear the leaves rustling outside my dorm window. The students complain about the libraries shutting down at 10 pm on Friday...
msphd--
You aren't understanding me. These 37 are not students who need to make up an exam. That happens constantly--even for excused reasons. I always wind up writing at least 3 finals, for example, because I have students who have more than two tests on one day of finals, for example. That's not their fault, and with classes the size of mine, statistically it's likely to happen. I send around a sign-up sheet for scheduling problems at midterm for the final--that is just part of the job. Irritating, but can't be helped.
Nope, these 37 students are just special--they can't come to the first week of class. They have no idea what I am doing the first week of class; they are going places with their families, and they need an extra week in addition to the 6 weeks we take at Christmas--which is more vacay than anybody gets in the Real World, but they need more. They just want me to outline what subjects I'm covering so they don't miss out on the first exam.
That's what Angry means when she says "And so it begins" because she knows full well this is not going to be the last one of these emails. It's going to be one of many where students presume we have nothing better to do at McUniversity than cover material for them on order when it works around their schedules, like songs you can download on ITunes.
I'm not paid to have each and every class 37 times for everybody who would rather be somewhere else. Again, you want to be somewhere else--fine by me, but class is MWF 11 to 12:15. You've got an unavoidable problem--hey, I understand. I can help out there. You want to go play? You're on your own.
You'll find, msphd, that few people, if any have gotten their PhD to grind students under their heels. But we didn't get a PhD to be somebody's mommy, either, and one way they will find out that this isn't high school is if professors don't wipe noses, hold hands, or respond to emails that say "I want extra chocolate milk." As a female professor, you will find, at least I do, that I sometimes I have to be *extra* rigid because they expect me to be extra accommodating. I would rather be nice; I won't get tenure if I am because I won't get my publishing done if I say yes to every demand for extra attention.
In my 12 years in the Real World, all of my supervisors would have *killed* me if I sent them such an email:
"Dear Sir,
I have just taken six weeks of vacation, but I am not coming back to work next week as you require because I need to take an extra week to go to a [A Bowl Game]. I can provide proof I am going. Let me know if I am supposed to be doing anything that week, ASAP. Thanks!"
Hmm. I didn't expect this one to stir up controversy. In case anyone is wondering,
1. I did not send this letter, although I would have no problems doing so. I'm not sure why ms.phd and sascha read it as snippy and/or rude. In my experience, most students who make these kinds of requests really don't understand what they are asking for. My letter is polite and even sympathetic.
2. In truth, like dr. lisa, I did not respond at all. I could not care less how this kid chooses to prioritize his life.
3. [A Bowl Game] takes place, like most events, on a weekend before classes begin. (!) Why A. Serious needs a whole additional week of vacation is a complete mystery to me.
4. A. Serious was my student in another class last year. I have had to handle his "special needs" before.
I am 100% with you, AP. And I can also understand why ms. phd and sacha took it as they did. I was *so* much nicer when I was in grad school...as a woman, I'm expected to "understand" students' unreasonable demands much more so than a male professor would be expected to. (Sorry if that last sentence doens't make any sense.) But now, I don't give a crap. My reply would've sounded much like yours; I would've explained to SPecial that he wouldn't be excused (per Section 555 of the Student Handbook), and that any work he missed would be his responsibility.
ms. phd and Sacha: AP's not kidding. You really will have dozens upon dozens of these people, and they think extended vacations and bowl games truly *do* merit special excuses/consideration.
I give my students four days to use as they see fit. These days are neither excused nor unexcused; they're simply absences. (I have too much paper to keep up with anyway, as an English prof.) Once a student misses that 5th day, he/she gets dropped from the roll with a WF (withdrawn failing). Some may ask, "Well, what if a relative's died and the student misses his/her 5th absence?" I tell my students to be VERY careful. Relatives will NOT wait until SPring Break to pass away.
miss kitty--how does your absence policy square with your university's? Because I could see my students demanding an extra day if they had blown through their absences and suddenly they have the reason for an excused absence (they'd define the five as "free days" and argue they were being penalized for their emergency later. We are REQUIRED to honor documented excuses...I think that would hold even if students squandered their five.
I don't take attendance at all. When somebody comes up to me and asks for a make-up, I ask for their documentation--if it's a dead relative, I send them over to the Dean of Students--it's really better that they deal with the Dean's office anyway. If they really do have a death in the family, they can talk to the dean's staff, who are great, and the staff will send out the notice to the profs to give the students the extensions/breaks they need. This way, the student who is grieving doesn't have to deal with five grouchy profs, and I don't have to be in the business of asking people for obits and funeral flyers.
Paert of the college experience is learning to prioritize. While AP didn't send the respose, she would have been entirely justified to have sent it. Personal responsibility is a fickle bitch, and yes, sometimes students have to give up cool events and social things in order to complete classwork.
A. Serious needs to figure out what is more important -- class grade or bowl game.
It's not AP's job to spoon-feed and accomodate.
Now, if it were excused absence material -- organ transplant, dead relative, etc., and all properly documented -- then I am sure that AP, and any reasonable person, might accomodate. But a football game? That's just painting "WELCOME" on your ass and inviting students to put on their Jimmy Choos and do the mashed potatoes on you.
Aw shucks... I thought Angry Professor had actually sent that email. I would have sent it (just ask the little snot who felt the need to send me an email giving me "suggestions" on how to structure my exams). And, I agree that male prfoessors do not have to put up with the assumption that they will pat the little angels on the head, wipe their noses for them, and kiss their boo boos!
I would've sent the email to the student. To be so presumptuous as to try to arrange an excuse before the class has started for something that actually does not interfere with class and resembles no excused absence ever heard of merits a crisp response. The respect and consideration and flexibility students expect from professors is a far cry from the attitude, nodding off, talking during lectures, late appearances, pointless disruptions, unreasonable demands and failures to engage with the material and class that professors get.
I don't care if students are absent or not, either, but the U. does. When students try to make their absences my problem, I give the trouble back to them--no made-up work except for excused absences. (I am secretly flexible with students who catch the flu or have extended family problems but only up to a point.) The assumption that a class you want to miss won't be useful is immature. The world does continue spinning when you are asleep and class continues when you are gone.
And what about A. Serious' attitude? His condescension that Prof. A. has nothing to do with her time, energy and concern but him?
Nice university absence policy and efficient system, Dr. Lisa. Lucky you. I take attendance but it doesn't really matter--I do a lot of in-class work, quizzes and small groups that get grades that cannot be made up so the number of 0s in my roll book usually matches the number of absences. And as students miss more classes for no reason, I increase the points earned in class. At some point, you have to drop or take the F. But my classes top out at 35 and I teach writing/English rather than lecture courses.
We are not their mothers. I learned when I was THREE that no one else will love you like your mother and doesn't fucking have to. Sometimes, you have to take care of, and responsibility for, yourself.
Part of what annoys me about students like this is that they seem to think their education is *my* responsibility, not theirs. But just as bad is the assumption, which is widespread at the expensive SLAC that I teach at, that the first two weeks of the semester don't count, and can be spent shopping for the most interesting classes, because "nothing important" gets done in the first week or two. That is *not* how I see it - I don't lecture the first day, but after that, the material covered will count! If you are enrolled but don't show up, I feel no compunction to cover material again so you can catch up. Maybe I'm getting old and cranky, but my attitude has become "it's your grade, and you have to earn it, so be a grown-up and accept the responsibility."
And I think that school *is* the real world, and that we shouldn't cut students slack for crap like this - how many bosses are going to do that? Students have ample time off between semesters to go on vacation or whatever. If you sign up for my class, then your butt better be there or your grade takes the hit. Period!
I remind my students to think of my course in the same way that they think about their jobs. If they don't show up for work, they don't expect to be paid. Likewise, if they chose to miss class, they should not expect to get credit for work missed.
What really irritates me, however, is that my administration expects (and directs) me to make exceptions for athletes. The excuse is that the athletes are representing the University. I think that the real reason is that the University will do anything it takes to keep the fans happy and the money rolling in.
I've found the athletes to be good kids and, frankly, they would be stupid to not take advantage of what the University requires me to do.
My point? The students are just reflecting the value systems they see in the larger society. A strong commitment to intellectual excellence is not valued in our public schools, by the general public, or my administration. It is not just students.
Heh, Anonymous just above. I recently had a student give me a letter written by her employer that read "Please excuse Special Student from class" signed, her Special Employer.
I was very nice to Special Student and explained that while this letter suggested she was not frivolous in her absence, this didn't quite meet the requirements of an excused absence of a medical or legal emergency. She was actually quite understanding, which elevates her standing in my eyes.
(And before y'all accuse me of being harsh or unsympathetic to working students: I put myself through all levels of school by working. I have sympathy, but only to a point.)
But what I really want to do is write a letter to her employer that asks to excuse her absence from work, but to assure she receives full payment nonetheless.
Hi, Dr. Lisa: My university's policy is that a student can't miss more than 15% of total classroom days, "if the professor does not state otherwise in his/her syllabus." I encourage athletes to take my class during the offseason. We do a lot of in-class writing work, which is nearly impossible to make up outside the classroom.
I work for a med school. I can assure you that any attempt to skip out on an assigned rotation or basic science class would be handled in a far less polite manner.
Last year one of my colleagues received an e-mail from a student saying she would be missing the first THREE WEEKS of class because she was getting married the second week and needed the first week for last-minute preparations and the third week for a honeymoon. What sort of student schedules her wedding without first checking the academic calendar?
One (depressing) point: so many students are now being raised with the attitudes that their needs/wants trump all other considerations that they come to college unable to understand why someone would expect them to accept the consequences of their choices. I think some of this is healthy; they are not unduly intimidated by faculty and bureaucracies, and can be good at getting their needs met. But what AP's email (imaginary or not) accomplishes is, sadly, a part of the education that most of us now find it necessary--if inappropriate--to provide. We are often the first person to have to tell these students that there ARE in fact consequences. This student (or others like him, since he has already had AP for class before) may NEVER have heard the message that if he makes certain choices (attending a fun event at the expense of school), other possibilities (like getting an A in a class) will perhaps inevitably disappear. (I'm not saying that he has never been told this, but that a startling number of students have been told it and yet always been protected from the real consequences). Many of my students feel that "'fessing up" ("I broke up with my boyfriend and cried all weekend so I couldn't write my paper," "I had to go to a friend's baby shower in Hometown during class," "I scheduled a movie date during the final") should automatically entitle them to second chances and special treatment. I'm not saying that I don't want to be kind and compassionate; I do, and at my SLAC, I have the opportunity. But I don't think we do students any favors by suggesting that someone else will always prevent them from suffering the consequences of their choices; they need to learn (and be taught) that it is not, in fact, AP's or my responsibility to help them get an A after they have chosen another priority. Pointing that out to them is often a favor to them, and to the rest of society!
At my college, we have a rash of students wanting to take two courses scheduled at the same time. In many cases, one is a requirement, and the other "just sounds cool." It simply does not occur to them that they may have to postpone the cool class, or perhaps reschedule something extra-curricular to accomodate another section. No, they ask to be allowed to take two conflicting classes, attending each only 1/2 of the sessions.
Where on earth does that idea come from? Who knows; but I find that more and more of my job includes--whether it should or not--trying to disabuse them of it.
maybe it's me, but i think we're missing at least one or two salient points here: for one thing, the culture of excuses that revolves around some institutions (like mine) really harms students in the long run--at least imho. if one of the things we're supposed to be doing is getting them ready for the "real" world (an expression that makes me wince) accepting excuses for bowl games, ski trips, and sick dogs is a darn poor way to do it --unless employers like microsoft, hewlett packard, and toyota start doing accepting similar excuses.
also, i'm not sure if i blame the kids so much as i blame the faculty. they're just trying to get away with whatever they can, which is what college students have always done. we're the ones alledgedly in charge of setting the perameters --which is all the original email did. rock on, angry p.
I've found this whole discussion really interesting. And here's another perspective:
Where I went to school, tuition was EXPENSIVE. With that in mind, the university basically treated students like consumers, a philosophy that came with many pros and cons.
The pros mostly have to do with the high quality of education and the high rate of positive changes at the school, because they actually make a point of incorporating student feedback.
The main cons have to do with the type of student who can afford to go there. Since most of the students are incredibly spoiled to begin with, it's no wonder that they think the faculty should be at their beck and call. As far as they're concerned, a professor is a $50-100/hour private tutor. Since they're used to the Spa Life, they probably think of class as a manicure appointment they can always reschedule.
Having read everyone's responses, I think I would probably do what Average Professor did and ignore the email. Particularly since, as she says, she has had to deal with this particular student's 'special needs' before.
I think the real bothersome part is the "I can provide proof if necessary". As if it matters. I have no problem with people skipping class - basically turn in your work and pass my tests and I have no issue with you. I have a bigger problem with people expecting to get an excused absence for non-emergencies.
One of my favorite recent excuses was the student who skipped out on a mandatory lab day because she had tickets to Jerry Springer and she "thought it was pretty important". Another is from a the colleague who had someone not make an exam because she "tripped over her cat." (And no, she did not sprain or break anything.)
When I taught at Ohio State, this happened all the time. Of course, those students were always those who were required to go to the game, players or band members or cheerleaders. And then there were the profs who missed class because they were on the NCAA committee or whatever. Since they were required to go, it all worked out. I can't remember students missing class because they were simply going to the game, though.
Actually, rereading the student's email, is that student just attending the game or required to go, to play in it or whatever? This might be clarified in comments I haven't read yet. I remember this happening a lot, though.
Obviously, this student isn't entitled to an excused absence for the game. Still, I don't think it's unreasonable for the student to ask about what work he or she will be missing.
If it were my student, I'd say, "The assigned readings are on the syllabus, the Power Point slides will be on the course website, and the taped lecture will be on file in the library. Ask a friend to take notes. If there's an assignment due in class that day, it's your responsibility to hand it in early."
Jeebus Lindsay... powerpoints online and taped lectures... no wonder students don't feel they have any responsibility for their education. You are doing everything for them. It's simpler for me--come to class, do the work, or take an F!
I'm guessing this thread is long gone, but what bothers me is the 'creditor relations' mindsight of students. What I mean is the stories debtors are told that it's sometimes sufficient, in lieu of actually paying off the debt, to just 'keep in contact' with the owner of the debt. Somehow this has leeked into our corner of the world and I get students who've done no work or taken no exams coming to office hours just to 'stay in touch'--as if that, in some measure, ameliorates. What can we do to curb this creeping 'credit consciousness'?
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