The worst offenders are often the nicest guys. They have no idea they are being sexist, believe, in fact, that they aren't being sexist, and so the problem persists.
Here are only a few of my recent observations:
- Men have important discussions and sometimes make administrative decisions with male colleagues while standing at the urinals. There's rarely more than one woman in the restroom at a time in my department and at my conferences; there are too few of us.
- Talks given by women are more frequently interrupted, often with irrelevant or tangential comments. At my recent conference presentation, a man interrupted my first slide to ask a procedural question about Pap smears.
- Women who attempt to ask questions about or comment on talks usually raise their hands so the moderator can call on them. Men frequently fail to do this, and even when the moderator does call on a woman, men sitting nearby assume that the moderator called on them and will talk over her. I have seen a woman fight back by being just as aggressive and rude, and even pointing out to the audience that it was her turn; she was labeled oversensitive and bitchy.
- Women are frequently not told of nor asked to contribute to special journal issues or special collections, even when the topics are directly related to their research. I am on the editorial board of a journal, and only recently found out that several special issues are in press. The decision to release these special issues was made by a subset of the men on the board without consulting the board as a whole; no work by women is represented in these issues.
- Seminal papers authored by women are overlooked until that line of work is cited by men. Then it is the men's papers that are cited; the original work is forgotten. I can name at least three areas in my field where this has happened, and one of the areas is mine (keep reading).
- I initiated a now important and popular line of research approximately a decade ago. A man (my post-doc advisor) decided to do research in this area, and conducted a series of federally-funded workshops here at LSU. I was not invited to participate (told, in fact, that my participation was not welcome), and was not told about them until the day before they began.

40 comments:
Tangential and, I swear, non-combative comment:
I'm a (male) grad student in clinical psychology, which is interesting in that it's undergoing a huge generational gender shift. Most of the faculty here are male, but the overwhelming majority of the grad students are female (when I came in, I was the only male in a cohort of 11 first-years), and many of them will win tenure someday in the future.
So what'll that do? When you think about the wider context, often enough, those professions which become female-dominated over time (nursing and school teaching did this over the 20th century) get relegated to the category of "woman's work" and will not be as prestigious as they were before. (I think this is especially true of school-teaching, which runs in the family.)
Will this happen to clinical psychology? Hard to know.
How about in the smaller context? I've already noticed that *I* get marginalized from time to time in lab meetings and class discussions. No hard feelings -- I know this is pretty normal human behavior.
Still, it's annoying. And, at least for now, it provides a vague sort of argument for, yes, treating "gender balance" as a worthwhile organizational goal.
OK, off to teach Abnormal Psychology (15 female students, 4 male students). What an interesting future it's going to be!
As a female grad student (albeit one in a humanities discipline), I can only sympathize (and seethe in anger... much seething, especially about your last two points.)
These are the sorts of stories that give me complexes about leaving the sciences... "did I give up the fight by going to the humanities?" Then I need to remind myself that I'm far better at Latin than I ever was at Math and I'm making female academics look much better than I ever would as a mediocre physicist.
One correction. Men never have discussions at the urinals. It is a big faux pas to initiate conversation or even acknowledge one another's presence. If conversation is begun, it is limited to vague comments like "Nice weather" or "How 'bout them Cowboys." Men do not greet one another in the restroom until washing their hands, and by then bathroom time is almost done and there is no time to take decisions.
@L - your problem is just as bad as mine. I know that in some fields (Education comes to mind), men have a terrible time advancing. If I had any answers, I wouldn't be complaining.
@Jack - apparently the men in my community are different. They freely admit that such decisions were made in the men's room. Whether peeing or not, I don't really need to know.
This sort of stuff really enrages me. I never encountered such overt sexism until I went back to school for my phd. The worst is the group of guys who think they are being all enlightened when they are really just pulling the same sort of crap the others do. bleh.
I don't have anything wise to say. I just thought I should declare my sympathies.
I'm very lucky to be in the arts/humanities, I guess. Or maybe I just work at an awesome university.
Most of the men, I'd say 97%, in our department (English) are pretty aware of the sexism in higher ed, and do their best to make sure discussions, workshops, opportunities, etc. are open to everyone. That other 3% consists of a couple old curmudgeons who are about to retire anyway, and who are slowly being phased out of most everything.
My cousin, who's a chemistry Ph.D., sees a lot of this crap in her line of work, both in the university and in trying to start her own research firm, and it makes me LIVID.
I'm going through tenure review now (working on month #14, because my dept chair didn't think my case was urgent, so he worked on my male colleague's case in a timely manner but didn't think I'd mind if he sat on mine for 4 months...). After these last 12 years in academia (grad school plus assist prof jobs), I have come to the conclusion that this really is a sexist discipline (I'm in biology). One of the truly huge problems that the men don't see is that women don't have a champion the way men do -- all the male junior faculty in my dept have a serious mentor that fights to make sure things work out well for them. NONE of the very few female junior faculty has a mentor like this. NONE of us. And ALL of us have faced hurdle after hurdle, each of which can be argued as just "bad luck", but it never ceases to amaze that the our male counterparts RARELY face such bad-luck-hurdles. Given that men hugely outnumber women in my dept, this just seems statistically unlikely to result from only "bad luck". But, none of the men see it this way.
The same problem seems to exist outside the university too, where women don't tend to have a more senior champion who makes sure you are included in workshops, special journal issues, invited lectures, nominated and awarded achievement prizes, etc. Women have to play by the rules, but men help each other to make sure things are more "fair" for them...
Many of these behaviours are learned and male appropriate by socialization. Either you have to learn to play like the men or get rolled over. It's nothing personal. Self-effacing men will get stepped on, too. They learn to act this way circa grade 2 or 3. So either man up, in all senses or get used to it.
I've been haunted by the truisms behind old maxims lately, and one in particular applies well here, I think:
Evil thrives when good people do nothing.
This encapsulates a lot of problems in the world today, in particular the continuation by people of privilege of the negative -isms lots of us face: sexism, racism, ageism, et cetera.
I've seen white-dominated grad programs get very angry when the minority students even suggested there were issues of institutional racism present in the program. It was as if the admin themselves had been accused personally ...which in a way they were, by implication, since they were refusing to address real concerns based on real experiences. Sounds like the same dynamic occurs with regard to women in science.
See no evil; hear no evil; speak no evil.
If I refuse to acknowledge a problem exists, then it therefore does not!
Urinals or not, business is often done in the male world. I remember volunteering at the AHA one year and an older man from my alma mater was complaining about how the society no longer had "smokers" (cigar parties or their ilk) with men only. So while the problem is recognized (sometimes) the resistance against it is still there.
Oh, and side note: take a guess the root word of "seminal."
Jack's right; men DON'T do discussions or decisions in the bathroom, either while peeing or otherwise. The men who excluded you are assholes and liers, and the urinal story is just a bad lie to cover up the fact that they deliberately excluded you. As I advised previously, screw 'em!
As for the post-doc advisor who poached your research line: an old and familiar story which happens over and over regardless of gender. An asshole move, but an old and classic one. He didn't want you anywhere near the workshops because you could blow the whistle on the multiple frauds and missing pieces in the stuff he did by simply attending and asking the hard questions he couldn't answer.
Most of your list is simply asshole behavior. However, research has shown that a higher proportion of assholes ARE men, so...
- greybeard prof
Last year, in a grad-level literature class, I was shocked at the sexism I encountered. Usually, women dominate in numbers, but in that class, we were only a third of the student population. In class discussions, we would raise our hands and not get called on, so I started just speaking up as the guys did. If I gave a feminist-based reading, the guys would pile on, including the prof, but if a guy gave a blatantly sexist reading and a few of us women tried to call him on it, we were labelled bitchy and effectively silenced by the prof changing the subject.
The worst night was when the men dominated a class discussion on a few poems to the point that three of us had our own class discussion since whenever we spoke up we were silenced. When we were leaving the room, the prof asked us if he'd have to get out the paddle next time. I was so pissed that I told him that he should, since I had a lawyer who needed some work. We were all older, married women, two of us with kids, and he had no right to talk to us like that and wouldn't have if we'd been guys. I stayed and tried to explain things to him, and he was a bit better after that, but since it was the end of the semester, it was pretty much a lost cause.
For those saying to "man up," I do. I grew up with three older domineering brothers, and I can hold my own. My question is why should I? Shouldn't class discussion or presentation Q&A or whatever focus on making sure all voices are heard? At times in that class, I took on five other guys, including the prof, by myself, but I didn't think it was okay or fair either now or at the time.
When I taught high school, I didn't let my kids talk over each other or gang up on other students in order to silence them. It's not that hard to stay in control of a class enough to make sure all voices are heard. You just have to be committed to fairness and be firm.
No, you have this in humanities as well. Our department grad students were 75% women, and the department faculty was 75% men. Hmmmm. And guess what? Even with all the grads going through, the ratio hasn't changed.
And how many women do you who were hired to a job when they had small children?
Yeah.
We could tell stories together all day, and men would make excuses and whine about how hard it is to be them. Blah.
All I can say is - yeah. I've seen this, not just in academia, most all of my life. I always thought it would improve. But then, I write children's fairy tales.
Oh, and side note: take a guess the root word of "seminal."
Actually comes from the word in latin for seed:
sēmen inis, n [1 SA-] .--Of plants, seed: manu spargere semen: terra semen excepit: iacto semine, V.: quercus de semine Dodonaeo, O.--Of men or animals, seed, race: genitus de semine Iovis, son of Jupiter, O.: ipsa regio semine orta, L.: mortali semine cretus, of mortal race, O.: (virtus) propria Romani seminis, i. e. an inborn characteristic of the Romans.--A shoot, graft, scion, set, slip, cutting: Seminibus positis (i. e. virgultis), V.--Posterity, progeny, offspring, child: inpia Semina fert utero, O.--Fig., seed, an origin, essence, principle, source, occasion, ground, cause: veteris percepto semine venae Arva rigent auro, O.: malorum omnium: huius belli: Semina terrarumque animaeque marisque Et ignis, i. e. the four elements, V.: semina discordiarum (tribuni), L.: semina futurae luxuriae, the small beginnings, L.
"If a significant fraction of the graduate students in your field are women but only a few of your colleagues are women, then there's a problem and you are very likely contributing to it."
Ah yes, another one of those "All men are evil, sexist pigs and we should castrate them RIGHT NOW!!!" rants.
*yawn*
Angry Professor,
Men do not talk in urinals. It seems your colleagues are aware of your fight for equality and they are yanking your chain on purpose with that story.
Oh boy, my favorite game! Take a handful of anecdotes and present them as rock-solid evidence of a broad conspiracy among almost 50% of the population.
But my male colleagues report to me on conversations had in the urinals. They *say* it's one of the places work really gets done. They also say that if they can't get colleagues to talk in urinals, they sometimes have better luck in locker rooms. No kidding. I didn't know about all of this until men told me. The ones who tell me this, are of course ones who realize how unfair it is and report to the women on what has been discussed in the urinals.
The more senior type the woman, the more I get amazed / irritated - being on an editorial board and not being told there were special issues of the journal in process is just SO egregious (and yet I am SO glad to hear this kind of thing doesn't just happen to me).
When I see the sort of response from Anonymous 12:12, I want to point out that most feminists love men in their lives. We don't want to see men castrated or killed because they're our partners, fathers, sons, friends, nephews, cousins, and so forth.
We just want to end the patriarchal domination crap.
@ The anonymous commenters (12:12 and 9:21): You have misunderstood the problem, which is that even nice guys who do not perceive themselves as sexist are perpetuating institutionalized sexism. I love men; I just wish y'all would wake up. I don't think you're conspiring against me (even my post-doc advisor), I just think you're utterly clueless and lost in your own perspective.
I repeat: if there is a significant fraction of women at the bottom of a discipline's ladder, and that fraction decreases as we go up the ladder, then we have institutionalized sexism. The men on the ladder should start looking at themselves.
@ Prof Zero and the guys who claim that the urinals are silent sanctuaries: the ladies room door is right across from the men's room door in my building. There is an awful lot of conversation in there. I don't care if it's at the sink, the urinals, or just behind the door. It's in the MEN'S room.
@ Bardiac: Preach on, sister.
The way you have been treated is appalling and disgusting.
Universities present themselves as bastions of equality and social justice. They preach it to all who will listen, but they do not practice it themselves. They abuse and belittle you because you are a woman.
I am disgusted at the hypocrisy that you experience as a university professor. It lends credence to my believe that American higher education is morally bankrupt and should not be supported.
Universities behave in the classic liberal way, “Do as I say not as I do."
I sincerely hope that your talk actually had something to do with pap smears. Otherwise, that's just a really awkward question.
There is an awful lot of conversation in there.
Either they are talking about the weather and other pleasantries or your place is a true exception and men hold departmental meetings by the urinals.
Frankly, I would be a lot more concerned about the locker room where men do talk and often linger just to carry on a conversation.
The "no talking" in the urinals is the rule of Gen X-Y. Older men do talk in the restroom. Not Talking to another guy at the urinals stems from the the same latent homophobia as the Generation X-Y tradition of not showering after gym.
Actually I'm a Boomer (late boomer but a boomer) and talking at the urinal was a huge no-no. That's not to say that the rest of the items on this list are not true but bathroom conservations tend to be short and involve small talk about sports...
--Woodrowfan
This is the Anonymous 12:12 commenter again. I understand the problem quite clearly: some women will accuse men (which men? Who cares! They're all patriarchal oppressors, right?) of sexism, regardless of what said men say or do.
Frankly, I'm offended at the accusation of sexism. You don't know a single fucking thing about me. Fuck you and the urinal you rode in on.
The poster doth protest too much, methinks.
I've been amazed at the guys who swear up and down that they're not sexist. They do and say stuff all the time that they don't realize has its base in sexist thought and oppressive behavior. In my experience, they tend not to think about their decisions until forced to, and when confronted, they get angry and lash out instead of looking inside, wondering if they need to work on their attitudes and underlying assumptions.
Maybe that's not this poster, but it's how a lot of guys I've taught, taken classes with, and worked with have operated.
@ Carina - And something else Anonymous doesn't realize, apparently, is that even if he isn't sexist, no not even one little bit, and if there are few women in his institution, then he is working and thriving in a sexist environment.
Just because women aren't being referred to as bitches and hos, and being pinched on the bottoms and asked to get coffee for the men, doesn't make a nonsexist institution.
Amen to all of that.
One of these days, women will be fully equal in academia.
"And something else Anonymous doesn't realize, apparently, is that even if he isn't sexist, no not even one little bit, and if there are few women in his institution, then he is working and thriving in a sexist environment."
I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. The mere fact that one sex is underrepresented implies sexism? We can go to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics and easily look up the breakdown of various occupations by sex. Are all places where the number is not 50% results of institutional sexism?
Let me grab an example:
69.9% of "Medical and health services managers" are women. 27.8% of "Computer and information systems managers" are women. These two discrepancies are roughly equivalent. Based on your statement above, they are both examples of sexism. Actually, I feel confident that if I posted only the second one, you would've said it was sexist, but with both you would be reluctant. Now, if we looked at correlates with salaries then it might be possible to make a case, however the statement "if there are few women in his institution, then he is working and thriving in a sexist environment" doesn't say anything about pay.
So, why do we assume that academia is magically different? Why do we assume that all grad students want to be professors? Furthermore, why do we assume that "grad student wants to be faculty" is independent of "grad student is female"?
The additional thing that seems to be going on here is the assumption that "male acts like a jerk to woman" is sexism when almost by definition the reporter of the anecdote has no control set: they cannot generally say whether this would've happened to a man. I have been screwed by an advisor I trusted and been scooped and left out of work I initiated. The person who did this was male, but so am I. So I attributed it to him being an asshole. If I just flipped the bit to say that I was female, why does he stop being just an ass and instead become sexist?
Sexism happens. It really does and I have seen it. I think there are big, difficult questions that we need to solve as a society about allowing both men and women to have families without compromising their careers. There are problems we need to solve about the negative effect of boys on girls in primary school classrooms. There are lots of real problems we need to sort out. However, this kind of vitriol about "sexism everywhere!" (particularly among intelligentsia) dilutes the true issues and does a disservice to both men and women.
@ Another Anonymous - you've missed the point. I didn't say that anything different from 50% women is sexism. I said that if you start with some (large, unspecified) fraction of women who are graduate students, but the fraction of women represented in the discipline decreases as you go up the ladder, then there is institutionalized sexism. That is, the structure and norms of the discipline are such that those women are choosing not to proceed rather than fight against them.
Furthermore, and you have to take my word for it, my anecdotes are instances of men being shitty to women, and those same men would never behave in a similar way to a male peer. That's sexism.
Could it partially be (and I'm really not trying to stir the pot anymore) because women are "expected" to make the sacrifice in terms of childrearing?
If two young PhD students have a child, and the woman adjuncts so that she can raise the child, while the man takes a tenure track position, is she ever going to get back on track?
I know my mother said that knowing at 18 what she knows now, she would have majored in education instead of engineering. After getting fired for having two maternity leaves in two years(yes, she did consult a lawyer, but he advised her that while she would probably win in a lawsuit, she would definitely be blackballed.), it was impossible to find another job.
Good on you, angry professor, for your perseverence with the Anonymii who have missed the point.
Shame on you, Anonymii who insist that angry professor is the one who missed the point (of her own post? about the sum of her own first- and second-hand experience? in her own blog? You're just helping her by explaining why your understanding of her personal life experiences is better than her own, eh? You're precious).
My supervisor is a nice guy/worst offender, and I'd print out this post and slip it under his door if I didn't think he would a) suspect me and b) react in the same way as the above.
Re: the child thing. I was a single mom whose spouse lived out of town. When I went to a meeting I either paid for him and my grandmother to accompany me, or flew him down to one of his relatives'.
When I complained because these costs, although necessary, were not reimbursable, I was told that I shouldn't have gone to graduate school if I was going to have a child. My advisor, a nice guy, told another of his advisees that she shouldn't have a child while in graduate school.
I replied heatedly that that would be great if you wanted a bunch of white men as faculty. (I do believe that the factors that hold back women have held back people of color also.)
There was an Asian male faculty member in the room at the time. He looked Shocked by my response!
(Biological sciences)
One of the women scientists I admired most, for her work and her attitude, was labeled a "dragon lady" and graduate students feared her. She told the truth, worked hard, and expected her grad students to work hard and think hard. Her graduate students, including many women (at least half, more I think) succeeded in their fields. I love dragon ladies.
Thanks so much for this post and discussion. If I've understood correctly I have a couple of points:
1. Men of many generations do not talk in the restroom. There is an element of latent homophobia in this, but also an association of elimination with embarrassing impurity. Local exceptions do develop. The general point still holds, which is that if a group of sexist men want to cut women out of important conversations, there are easy ways for them to do this. Off-campus bars come to mind.
2. Women do not have a control set when they claim that conduct they experienced would not happen to men. They are not men. Denying this elementary fact about the construction of repeatable and verifiable data is not a good way to get taken seriously. Of course men do not have a control set when they ascribe nonsexist motives to their interactions either. Stalemate. The question is whether we're going to invalidate all experiential learning. I hope not.
3. Underrepresentation of women in faculties now is not evidence of institutional sexism now. It is evidence of institutional sexism when the cohort of faculty was hired. There are two ways to think about fixing this legacy sexism. We can start hiring nonsexistly, which over a long period of time as the old boys attrit will gradually even out the gender distribution, with the actual numbers looking sexist the whole way. Or we can play aggressive catchup by hiring nothing but women until the numbers are even, then start hiring nonsexistly. By that point, of course, young boys might have gotten the message and opted out of the profession.
Cheers!
IME, Men do talk shop in and around the restroom. I mean sure, men aren't usually chatting with strangers while peeing, granted. The do chat with people they know and yes, some of this is networking and conducting business of the day.
I am a male academic, working in a physical science where the male-to-female faculty ratio is as far from unity as they come. I read your blog with great interest and find the majority of your posts very well thought-out. However, I do have to comment on this particular post since I find myself in some disagreement.
I feel I have to give here some examples of my own as they seem to parallel your experiences.
My first example is that of a paper that I wrote that initiated a new line of research in my field. Three years after its publication the work in question was redone by a woman and it is her paper that is now getting the vast majority of citations and is regarded as seminal. She had the luck to work for a famous supervisor and thus had her work advertised globally, while I and my work never benefit from such publicity. Although the woman in question had acknowledged my work in her first paper, her subsequent papers do not cite my paper but only refer to her own work and in no uncertain terms try to portray that work as seminal. Is this fair? I don't know. But I don't think it's sexism.
Furthermore, I too have been cheated out of an idea by a senior mentor (in this case a male) who then went on to use it in his work to great credit. And the most gratuitous off-topic questioning that I had ever been subjected to in the middle of giving a talk was by a woman post-doc who (I surmise) was out to get noticed by potential future employers. Neither of these, to me, is an example of sexism.
I regard my experiences as examples of the cut-throat attitudes that the way science is done nowadays tends to favor. While I do not doubt sexism (and racism) exist in academia, it seems to me that many a time something is labeled as sexism while other possible explanations are ignored. I think it behooves us, as scientists, not to jump to the most appealing conclusion that fits the data, but to try to apply the same criteria for evaluating data that we try to apply to "main" research. If the results are inconclusive then, clearly, more and better data are needed.
--- a physicist
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